FORO DE BUCEO DEPORTIVO

Foro sobre buceo, fotografía y video submarinos. Quedadas y viajes.
Fecha actual 18/Dic/2018, 17:14

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 Asunto: Incidente durante exploracion de cueva en Mexico
NotaPublicado: 27/Dic/2017, 00:31 
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Open Weber Diver
Open Weber Diver

Registrado: 27/Dic/2017, 00:21
Mensajes: 1
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1612046102342961/

Hola, Quiero dejar esto en el 2017 para empezar bien el 2018. Paso ya hace un rato y me salio un poco dificil escribirt algo sobre ello. el documento esta en ingles (mas entendible para la comunidad que euskara) y quiere enfocarse en una reflexion para que no le pueda pasar nunca jamas el mismo a nadie. Aun que no es realmente un accidente de buceo, deja pensar que errores humanos pudieran resultar en fatalidades si (en este caso) no fuese por mucha suerte. Saludos

(intente subir en pdf pero no pude)


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 Asunto: Re: Viajar en avion con SPARE AIR?
NotaPublicado: 27/Dic/2017, 01:46 
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Master Diver Weber
Master Diver Weber
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Registrado: 24/Nov/2014, 09:26
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Peio Urpekaria escribió:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1612046102342961/

Hola, Quiero dejar esto en el 2017 para empezar bien el 2018. Paso ya hace un rato y me salio un poco dificil escribirt algo sobre ello. el documento esta en ingles (mas entendible para la comunidad que euskara) y quiere enfocarse en una reflexion para que no le pueda pasar nunca jamas el mismo a nadie. Aun que no es realmente un accidente de buceo, deja pensar que errores humanos pudieran resultar en fatalidades si (en este caso) no fuese por mucha suerte. Saludos

(intente subir en pdf pero no pude)
Hola Peio, muchas gracias por compartir tu experiencia.

Efectivamente tuviste mala suerte y buena suerte, afortunadamente la buena suerte pudo compensar la mala.

Me quedo con tu reflexión final. - Give a precise location to a relative, with the phone number of the owner.

Un abrazo.
Juan

Enviado desde mi SM-G930F mediante Tapatalk


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 Asunto: Re: Incidente durante exploracion de cueva en Mexico
NotaPublicado: 27/Dic/2017, 20:39 
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Dive Monster Weber
Dive Monster Weber

Registrado: 14/Dic/2010, 19:29
Mensajes: 2930
Ubicación: Alla a lo lejos
Joder, el mes pasado algo nos explicaron del tema en Playa del Carmen....yo me quedo con que estas bien, todo lo demas queda atras. :chin:

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QuimmusDeco 50bar y parriba


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 Asunto: Re: Incidente durante exploracion de cueva en Mexico
NotaPublicado: 31/Dic/2017, 17:52 
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Dive Monster Weber Platinum
Dive Monster Weber Platinum
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Registrado: 18/Feb/2005, 16:22
Mensajes: 18006
Ubicación: Seguro que donde no debo
La página que pones es de FB, y no lleva directamente al informe, además si no se tiene FB ...

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 Asunto: Re: Incidente durante exploracion de cueva en Mexico
NotaPublicado: 31/Dic/2017, 18:11 
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Master Diver Weber
Master Diver Weber
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Registrado: 24/Nov/2014, 09:26
Mensajes: 1207
Dugongo escribió:
La página que pones es de FB, y no lleva directamente al informe, además si no se tiene FB ...
Aquí lo tienes compañero

https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/non%20 ... PdmEQ9CQ7c

Enviado desde mi SM-G930F mediante Tapatalk


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 Asunto: Re: Incidente durante exploracion de cueva en Mexico
NotaPublicado: 01/Ene/2018, 13:26 
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Advanced Weber Diver
Advanced Weber Diver
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Registrado: 25/Jun/2013, 09:12
Mensajes: 439
Ubicación: Palma de Mallorca
Menos mal que quedó en nada y que, como se suele decir, Dios te vino a ver, porque sólo de imaginarme en la situación, me da un algo.


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 Asunto: Re: Incidente durante exploracion de cueva en Mexico
NotaPublicado: 01/Ene/2018, 14:08 
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Dive Monster Weber Platinum
Dive Monster Weber Platinum
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Registrado: 18/Feb/2005, 16:22
Mensajes: 18006
Ubicación: Seguro que donde no debo
JuanGi escribió:
Dugongo escribió:
La página que pones es de FB, y no lleva directamente al informe, además si no se tiene FB ...
Aquí lo tienes compañero

https://lookaside.fbsbx.com/file/non%20 ... PdmEQ9CQ7c

Enviado desde mi SM-G930F mediante Tapatalk


GRACIAS!!!

:chin:

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 Asunto: Re: Incidente durante exploracion de cueva en Mexico
NotaPublicado: 01/Ene/2018, 15:30 
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Dive Monster Weber
Dive Monster Weber

Registrado: 26/Jul/2016, 15:59
Mensajes: 2429
Me alegro que solo haya quedado en el susto. Uno aprende mucho de estas situaciones.

Muchas gracias por compartirlo con nosotros.

Saludos.

_________________
Canon S110 + Canon WP-DC47 + 2 x S&S YS-02 + Inon UCL-165m67 + Inon UFL-m150 zm80

https://www.flickr.com/photos/78790692@N03/


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 Asunto: Re: Incidente durante exploracion de cueva en Mexico
NotaPublicado: 03/Ene/2018, 17:47 
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Open Weber Diver
Open Weber Diver
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Registrado: 27/Nov/2017, 21:05
Mensajes: 5
no pueden cortar y pegar la publicación para los que no tenemos facebook?

hace 15 días hice 4 inmersiones en cenotes en Playa del Carmen y me gustaría saber que fue lo que pasó...


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 Asunto: Re: Incidente durante exploracion de cueva en Mexico
NotaPublicado: 03/Ene/2018, 22:03 
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OPEN WEBER DIVER 2*
OPEN WEBER DIVER 2*
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Registrado: 28/Ene/2017, 10:34
Mensajes: 123
Vulcano escribió:
no pueden cortar y pegar la publicación para los que no tenemos facebook?

hace 15 días hice 4 inmersiones en cenotes en Playa del Carmen y me gustaría saber que fue lo que pasó...


Si te lees los post anteriores descubriras como hacerlo tu mismo :D


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 Asunto: Re: Incidente durante exploracion de cueva en Mexico
NotaPublicado: 03/Ene/2018, 22:32 
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Master Diver Weber
Master Diver Weber
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Registrado: 24/Nov/2014, 09:26
Mensajes: 1207
picaportes escribió:
Vulcano escribió:
no pueden cortar y pegar la publicación para los que no tenemos facebook?

hace 15 días hice 4 inmersiones en cenotes en Playa del Carmen y me gustaría saber que fue lo que pasó...


Si te lees los post anteriores descubriras como hacerlo tu mismo :D
Jajaja, sin comentarios...

Enviado desde mi SM-G930F mediante Tapatalk


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 Asunto: Re: Incidente durante exploracion de cueva en Mexico
NotaPublicado: 04/Ene/2018, 11:21 
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Master Diver Weber
Master Diver Weber
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Registrado: 24/Nov/2014, 09:26
Mensajes: 1207
Se ve que el pdf ya no funciona.

Voy a pegar aquí el texto como pidió el compañero vulcano por el interés que creo que tiene para la seguridad de todos el conocimiento y la reflexión sobre este tipo de incidentes.

Peio si no estás conforme con la publicación mándame un MP y lo retiro.

Va sin puntos y aparte, lo siento

NON DIVING INCIDENT REPORT
Saturday 8th of July 2017 I went to explore a cave and get trapped under tons of construction rubbish until Monday 10th of July 2017. I’ll so write this about to analyze and understand what happened. The goal of this writing is to understand the relations between all the facts to avoid that can happen again to anybody. It is not really a proper dive incident or accident that’s why I’ll write so many details about “non-diving facts” and my relation with the place and the owner. The place and his history: It is always harder and more expensive to find new places and cenotes to explore in the Riviera Maya. There is now many local cave divers and some of them are active explorers and dedicate time and money to this activity. Good relation with land owners, hours driving trucks in bad jungle road, hours walking with heavy equipment in the bush are now the common price to pay to find a “virgin” cenote where a diver or a team can start an exploration project, and survey or even map the cave. For some of the following reasons and more the owner’s name and the location of this cave will not be published in this report: The land owner doesn’t want any problem. He used to go to this place to spend the Sunday with his family. He doesn’t want to be expropriated or be in trouble neither with justice department nor authorities. I got his authorization for a full access to his land to explore the cenotes in, as a non-commercial activity. The access is relatively easy and there is (or it was) a good potential for further cave exploration. Anybody is free to dedicate his time, his money or whatever to search new caves and cenotes that they could explore or start a project without trespassing or “disturbing” an ongoing project. The owner will be called “Don S”. He owns 2 lots that I’ll call land 1 (L1) and land 2 (L2). Both lands are around Cancun. So, months ago I was introduced to Don S and I showed him my interest in visiting his land. During the ride to the land, we had time to talk and I could explain him what I expect when I go explore a cave or see a new place… We clearly had a good talk.
On that time he took me to land 1. The place is covered by a dense forest. There is a rustic palapa hut with basic stuff like chairs, cases, coolers and a central place to make a fire. The land is really natural, a little path surrounded by rocks and stones leads to a dry cavern with a pool of crystal clear water. There is no silt, there are some fish and I could see from the first time a dark hole as a “v” coming from the ceiling and breaching the wall. After a check with a mask and snorkel I decided to go with my cave diving equipment and the “Sakon Ha” cave was born. Until today I put a bit less than 1000 feet of line in a cave section at a depth of 14m (45 feet), 400 feet (in few shots) at a depth of 37 m (the last time I was there) and I found a massive hole where I still couldn’t see the bottom. All of those lines are surveyed. The 29th of May 2017, I met again with Don S. and talk with him about this fantastic cave and the huge potential. I showed him my interest in keep exploring and ask his authorization to come with another diver to plan a Trimix dive. The goal was to reach the bottom of the big hole. I get his authorization and he showed me another piece of land that he owns, the Land 2. L2 is not far from L1, less than 100m away. Land 2 is different than Land 1 because there is much less tree. It is more as a bush. There is no path but a machete is not really needed to walk through the bush. There, he showed me a hole on the ground. There is in one side a slope, or I should say a natural stair who gives access to a little dry cavern. I can barely stand up in this cavern around the near entrance but walking more or less 3 m the ceiling is a bit higher. Again there is a pool with crystal clear water, a lot of calcium on the surface. The open water area is like a C, or an arch. On the sides it touches directly the walls of the cavern and in the middle the water reaches a depth of approximately 2 feet (0.5m) after a gradual slope. There is neither sand nor sediment, I stepped directly the limestone. I was tired that day after diving so I told him that next time I come, if I couldn’t find a buddy I can trust for the trimix dive, I will check this cenote on Land 2. Friday 7th of July, I had a direct authorization to stay on the land for camping and the owner explained me that he doesn’t go a lot to the land with his family because they will be working on weekends on their new business.

The facts: I sent a message to my partner who was working and told her that I’ll go explore in Cancun and I’ll stay there for the night. She never came with me there. Almost all my friends are divers or cave divers. I‘ve never been to that place with anybody else than the owner. I talked about it with some friends who are active explorers because we have common interest but that’s all. To be really honest, I kept this place secret for myself but I know that someday I’ll have to go with somebody to reach the bottom.
I first started the dive with 2 tanks (s80 alu) but after few minutes I reached a really big tunnel at a depth of 20m. This is deeper than I expected so I quickly changed my plan and get out the water to prepare 2 more stage tanks. So around 2:30pm I re started the dive, this time going with 4 tanks and it has been a (awesome) 132 minutes dive. When I get back into the pool in the dry cavern I directly saw some pieces of rocks and blocks in the water. Directly, my heart beat started to rise. I started to take off my tanks and when I could finally stand up I realized that the entrance is not that far, is just stacked by those rubbles. So here I am. After a 2h dive, there is a bunch of rubble in front of me and they filled a quarter of the dry cavern and the exit is stacked. At that time I’m full of hope, I’m just really upset because I’ll have to work to remove all the stones to free the entrance. I don’t really remember how much time it took me to remove all the pieces of blocks and stones until there are no more small pieces. Only big rocks of lime stone and the part of a wall remain between me and the entrance. I made a big mistake, trying desperately to push a big rock with my legs as strong as I could. The rock didn’t move at all, I hurt my back and I lost a lot of energy. This moment marked a change of mood. Now I’m hopeless, really tired, my back hurts and I start to realize that I have no way out. Later I had the idea to use one of my tanks as a hammer. I destroy quiet easy the wall, because the blocks broke easily. But soon I reached a pillar, made with pure concrete and iron bars. And with the fatigue, the stress, the hunger and the loss of energy it was really hard to hammer the rock of limestone because it was higher. To break the wall gravity worked for me, but I had to hammer upward to reach this limestone rock. Really late on Saturday night, my lights ran out of battery. I had with me my watch and my shearwater computer for only light supply. I spent the whole Sunday on the dark, drinking cenote water, and dealing with silence, the noise of my breathing and stomach. When it was finally Sunday around 7pm, I believed that I’ll die here. Nobody came on Sunday, so nobody will during the week” I’ll just die starving”. Until the Monday morning, I alternate between hammering with my tank and try to “rest”. When my arms couldn’t carry the tank I rest. When my thoughts got to dark I grab the tank and hammer again. I was hammering when I clearly listen some noise so I started to yell “Ayudeme ! No me dejen aqui !”. But then I shut up because I thought that maybe they came to dump more. Finally some rocks moved and I understood that somebody is working on it from outside. Couple of minutes after, the big block of limestone moved enough to let me some space to go out. I saw the owner getting off his truck. I went to him; I took him in my harms and thanked him. He towed some more rocks with his truck and helped me to get out all my equipment.
We had a short talk, he explained me that he came to his land seeking for some wood to build some bench for his church. He saw my truck on land 1 one but didn’t see me in the cenote (I would have been diving, he wouldn’t have seen me!) so he went to Land 2. He saw the bunch of rubbles and getting closer he listened the bang of my tank. I just went for the closest food supply and then I get a down. I wrote a quick text in a diver community chat to say that I was ok. I didn’t feel up to go to the police to claim but the owner did. After waiting some hours, they told him that it’s not normal to let foreigners trespass the land that cave diving is a dangerous activity and the diver should have something else to do. They ask why the land is not fenced and laugh when the owner asked if it will be possible to identify the truck which dumped those rubbles. Finally they didn’t receive his claim and they suggested him to refer to another department in charge of “this kind of case”.

Conclusions: I entry the cave around 2:30pm on Saturday, ran out of light (except computer and watch) late Saturday night. I exit the cave around 10:30 on Monday. I’m alive thanks to the owner of the land who came fortuitously to get some wood for a special event on his church community. THANKS GOD ! I HAVE BEEN REALLY “LUCKY”. The authorities seem to have no will to care about it (no dead man). The owner fears to be pushy with the authorities and to fall in trouble, even to be expropriated. On the end of august 2017 I had a discussion with the owner about what to do with the rubbles. As the idea is to go with some people of his community to take them off and clean the land, it is not fair to put it “on the land next to it”. Because of such idea I argued with the owner and had to apologize later on. I still feel embarrassed because a lot of people have been looking for me and some department like civil security has been warned and my relatives were really worried. I wrote this on September 7th 2017 and looking at it I only see in this that I have been, on the same time, really unlucky and really lucky. One thing could have been done better :
 Give a precise location to a relative, with the phone number of the owner.
Some “what if ?”, with some feedback information:  What if I knew that I could park my car next to land 2 and would have done so? Would it be enough to deter the dumper(s) to dump there?  What if a relative knew the exact location of the place? I might get out earlier.  What if the owner wouldn’t have come? I’d be dead, probably starving.  What if I wasn’t alone? I have no idea about the reaction of another person in such situation even another cave diver. I wish nobody will have to experiment that. I’m glad I was alone. Rocks were too big even for two persons with regular fitness.

What did I learn (some lessons of this incident)? I think that for future explorations I’ll make sure to give at least to someone a precise GPS point of the place I’m going even to a non-diver person. Like this in case of no show, it will be easier to start to search somewhere. Make a plan with somebody close or a familiar in case of no show might be a good idea. However it is a really delicate thing to do. It is not fun at all, I would even say that it is embarrassing then to face people, especially people who was worried or looking for me. I thought I passed quiet well the physical and psychological impact of this “adventure” but after take some time to start to write this, I had several trouble to sleep. I spent over a month sleeping no more than 2 or 3 hours a night. Thus, I figured out that I had a psychological trauma, and that even living in a place where there is thousands of divers, hundreds of cave divers, it is really hard to find proper help, like a good psychologist, psychiatrist or similar. So, I did learn that talking about it with the proper person really helps, but it is not easy to find this person. It may be because of shame, ego, psychological weakness or problem to trust somebody, especially another cave diver friend, what represents the majority of the people I know here. To know somebody who it’s possible to talk with without any fear of being judged is important BEFORE. Obviously nobody plans such kind of event, but I noticed the importance to have somebody to talk with, just in case. I think as well that external signalization could have been useful. This idea came to me after talking with non-divers, and many of them had the same question: “don’t you put a flag or a sign at the entrance of the cave when you go diving in there ?”. I never eared about such protocol in the Yucatan Peninsula (which is probably still the most active region on the world with ongoing cave diving exploration) but after talking about it with other divers, the idea might not be that ridiculous. I don’t know in the case of this precise event if it would have been enough to warn or deter the dumpers, or even if a sign or dive flag would have been seen or identified by the individual(s) prior to dump the rubbles. Anyway, it is a simple protocol to hang a visible flag and write something on it like “Caution, Divers in exploration here” in the local language, or to put a warning sign with the same meaning. Easy to do, cheap and quick, in the case of a remote or hide cave entrance, this signalization procedure would make sense. Peio, September 7th 2017. To answer common questions I’ll let this personal note: It felt as a really long time in there, especially on the total darkness. I thought a lot to my Babygirl and I explored parts of my mind I didn’t know they even exist. With the hunger, the thoughts got darker and darker as did the mood. What was the worse? The fact that absolutely nothing happens, and nothing will happen.

Enviado desde mi SM-G930F mediante Tapatalk


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 Asunto: Re: Incidente durante exploracion de cueva en Mexico
NotaPublicado: 13/Abr/2018, 17:58 
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Advanced Weber Diver
Advanced Weber Diver

Registrado: 26/Sep/2008, 10:26
Mensajes: 235
Ubicación: navarra
Impresionante. Muchísimas gracias por compartirlo. Me alegro mucho de que estés bien


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